Active Focus Causes Eye Floaters. Why no warning/disclaimer?

Now I actually discovered Endmyopia back in either 2016 or 2017. I had just been prescribed -5.00 from -4.25 and rather than go in for that I stuck with my -4.25s after seeing Jake’s starting point being similar. I got myself differentials for computer work and went glasses free for my artwork using a tablet. I now see almost 20/20 with -4.25 again (if not for the new astigmatism).

Last month thought I should give active focus another go since I made pitiful progress compared to others I saw. I really went at it. With my differentials and without glasses I was able to see text clearly from much further away than before. And then the very next day: floaters. Giant clear amoebas looking ones and dark orbs that track with my eye movement. (And no it wasn’t just suddenly paying closer attention to my vision. Some people like to suggest that to make themselves feel better.)

I checked myself into the ER fearing retina detachment since I knew a sudden increase in eye floaters was a symptom. No retina detachment. No post vitreous detachment. Something due to active focus caused them.

I much rather have shitty but clear vision with glasses than slightly less shitty vision with glasses along with starbursting lights and eye floaters zipping and zooming all over the place. This is not a worthwhile tradeoff. My quality of life has plummeted.

Jake puts up a disclaimer about transient astigmatism (yeah, we’ll see if the starbursting ends up being transient) but nothing about eye floaters which are permanent. If you search for eye floaters here, on the Facebook group, or on Youtube in relation to endmyopia you’ll see countless people say they suddenly had eye floaters after starting active focus. One forum user called it a “necessary evil.” But they remain positive because they think they’ll soon be glasses free. Poor fools.

Yeah, it’s on me for trusting some shifty fuck without a medical degree. But I put it to you Jake to put a disclaimer in your 7 day course about the possibility of eye floaters, or do a video on it. (Almost 300 videos and not a one about that.) Enough people have gotten them due to active focus to warrant it. To not include a warning is negligence or apathy.

I imagine one could avoid floaters altogether if they take things extremely slow and don’t force active focus. But again, it should be mentioned since this has happened to plenty of people attempting this.

The only reason I can see not doing this is it would cut down on Jake’s income because fewer folks would attempt this if they knew this could happen. Prove me wrong Jake.

There’s merits to Endmyopia (my overall vision would probably be worse if I had gotten the -5.00s and kept using my full prescription for close up work) but I think people have a right to know what they’re in for. “But John, if you only read the–” No. Jake has no information about floaters in relation to active focus in any of his posts. He has a couple general articles about floaters and one about LASIK causing them but not his method. (Or perhaps he does mention it in his paid course.) If I did do a search on all the places I mentioned rather than his website proper I would have seen all the people who now have them or an increase of them thanks to Endmyopia. (But if not for getting them, I would never have searched for information on them in the first place.)

I fucked up my eyes but I would like to prevent it happening to others.

Buddy, you’ve come to the wrong place to spout that stuff. Whatever your motive for inventing such nonsensical charges, we’re here helping each other because we know this works. If you don’t want the what’s available here, no one is detaining you.

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I’ve put on some weight lately. It’s clearly because of active focus, and Jake never warned me against that. The rest of you are warned!

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actually, it’s true that a lot of people get new floaters after starting active focus, happened to me as well. But it can’t be ascribed to Jake, I mean I figure if just using your eyes properly to focus after a long time of not using them properly results in floaters, it’s material that would have been released sooner or later anyway, you just sped up the process. I already posted about this multiple times. But yeah, I still agree that a warning would be helpful even if it’s just the speeding up of a natural process - but who knows maybe it means you won’t have this increase in floaters later in life as you already had it

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Hey Dirk, Jake is a big believer of doing your own research. Look up endmyopia and floaters. There’s a very clear connection based on many people who follow this method but a lack of material from Jake himself.

All I’m asking is he put a warning out there. A lot of new people get too gung ho and force it. As I said I tried clearing my vision from probably too far away that I somehow inured my eye resulting in the floaters.

One can hope Lajos. A non-myopic person usually gets them between the ages of 50-70 when there’s a post vitreous detachment and then they eventually settle down. Myopic folks tend to get them sooner. But if the entire vitreous hasn’t liquified, the clumped bit of collagen is suspended in the surrounding gel, and thus no settling. Just gotta wait for everything to liquify and hope it settles at the bottom of the eye as well.

Good chance I could have gotten them eventually without doing active focus, but based on it happening RIGHT AFTER my attempt and the fact that many people report the same, there’s no other conclusion I can come to.

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In what universe?

You accuse him of not being an MD, which he has never claimed to be. Then you diagnose your own medical situation, supposedly at his expense (though you don’t in fact say whether you are yourself an MD or not) and seem to have missed (evidently because of that tragic paucity of information that you find from Jake), that he says, over and over and with great emphasis, that there is no medical advice offered here.

The ingratitude is staggering.

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How old are these people. who get floaters?
There should be a statistic about endmyopia members, floaters and age.
Maybe that could explain something.

Jake warns plenty about not doing unusual stuff with your eyes. Not forcing vision changes. Etc… Instead, Just paying attention to what your vision looks like.

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This is a good point. Did you talk to the M.D. who checked your floaters about their being caused by doing active focus? I have never heard the professional field connect floaters with focusing without correction. By the way, it is recommended to reduce maybe by just 0.25, not 4.00, to practice active focus.

For Jake to warn that EM may cause double vision he has seen enough to be quite confident about this. I don’t know how confident we are that increased floaters are a risk. I have read about people having this, but I’m hoping it won’t happen to me. Do we have an estimate of how many people report this out of the number using EM? In order to be counted, would these floaters have to be ruled out before starting EM and then confirmed to be present after starting?

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I’ve had some easily tolerable floaters since adolescence. In my middle age I don’t notice a change since EM.

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Hmmmkay then. In the spirit of full disclosure and non-censorship of things, the personal insult bits will slide on this one. Also yikes, ER. That’s not a fun experience.

Let’s poke around this a bit …

How does active focus cause eye floaters? Yes, definitely people have mentioned floaters. But also figure, going on 20 years, and context. You’re actively paying attention to what you’re seeing, and part of what’s there is some floaters potentially.

I’ve spent some notable time researching and keeping tabs and I can’t find a correlation between what amounts to better habits and small (also naturally occurring) challenge to your vision, and floaters.

I don’t think anything you do that we recommend causes floaters. If I did, I’d be happily put out a disclaimer. Even if I thought it was potentially a risk, or somehow a side effect of 1) less screen time, 2) more distance, 3) no over minus for close-up and 4) challenging your eyes with a bit of blur - I’d certainly bring it up.

Sort of like you start going to the gym and eating less sugar and develop some adverse symptoms = gym must be bad, sugar must be good. What’s in endmyopia or what you’re doing that would cause floaters?

You notice floaters more. You’re not getting them more. One potential explanation. Or you changed something else at the same time that you’re not mentioning or thinking of. :man_shrugging:

All that said, I totally get it. Your experience would freak me out, upset me, I’d be all sorts of not happy. It’s entirely possibly that you have more floaters than you did, though if you look up causes of floaters it should become pretty clear that there’s nothing specific you did here that should cause them. I’d like to not discount your experience and definitely don’t want to seem flippant about it (hard to do when I’m also saying I don’t see how, specifically).

Keep us posted. Look a bit into floater causes. Also starbursts here too, absolutely not an endmyopia thing. If anything I’d have an ophthalmologist checkup and find out what’s actually going on. Hopefully a whole lot of passing symptoms but without a checkup, you’re making a lot of assumptions and not doing yourself any favors not finding out what can actually be assessed.

Get a proper checkup. Not an ER doctor for emergency things. Just a proper annunal ophthalmologist style review of the eyeballs. Come back with some actual data or diagnosis, tell us what actually non shifty f*cks with medical degrees told you is up. Put us in our place (or just help us improve these resources that you’re getting for free, so … :man_shrugging:), so that everybody gets some resolution and disclaimers and helpful insights.

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Again, context. For a bit of background, I use the BackTo20/20 program where everybody is doing the same thing and people are engaged in the process for a lot of these things. I spent a long time asking people regularly about floater experiences. The percentage reporting them was ongoingly negligible.

You see “many people” but consider the audience size. Hundreds of thousands of people have played around with endmyopia. Think of how many people don’t say “yup, no floaters” vs. the very few who may have noticed some and been vocal about it.

I love disclaimers. Endmyopia is full of them. Half my e-mail signature is a disclaimer. The more I disclaim, the more I can go :man_shrugging:. In this case I just don’t think floaters is an issue. My concern is that if I go “hey could cause floaters”, how many people simply will become aware of floaters (which we all have, but tuned out by our brain), and start questioning themselves.

We’d have to have a pre-endmyopia round of sessions of self assessing floaters. With what I’m assuming would be a lot of people just being freaked out by not even having worked on their myopia but now noticing the clear little bits of material floating around.

Not saying this to dismiss the topic. Just that I’ve spent plenty of time considering it (along with all the other endless things that can go on), and come to above conclusion.

I could be wrong. I’m often wrong.

Endmyopia exists in no small parts as a crowd sourced system and it/we rely on community insights to keep improving our approach.

Yea that’s a bit of a dick move.

Cut him some slack though, he went to the ER. Just the emotional toll alone, plus he came here, to us, to express his sentiments. All in all I’d say it’s fair response.

You’re Hungarian. You see stuff floating in everything.

:hungary::+1:t2:

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I’d say it’s exactly that. I too have some floaters, but I also know I’ve had them all my life. I used to wonder what they were as a kid. But if you don’t pay any special attention to your vision, you tend not no notice them. But of course when you’re intently looking at some road sign that you can barely read, in the hope to clear it up with active focus, you will notice if all of a sudden something floats past. And since you’ll be doing a lot of this when doing EM, you will notice this again and again. So you might indeed be tempted to conclude that active focus caused the floaters, but I don’t think that’s the case. Practicing active focus causes you to notice them more often.

I also really forced things at the beginning when I was trying to find active focus, since I found that very difficult. But I succeeded eventually, and I can’t say that I’ve had a significant increase in floaters because of this. Now I practice AF all day long and I haven’t yet noticed any ill effects.

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Maybe you should create a sticky forum thread in backto2020 asking all participants voluntary to write their progress, age and floaters experience. With that data we could analyze the connection. Even if eyeball shortening would cause eye floaters, a life depending on glasses and risk going blind is not better. I think people would be not scared of getting more floaters, if there is a connection.

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I apologize about the personal attack. I was (I think understandably) upset, after seeing floaters being a common issue in endmyopia followers. Seemed like it could have been prevented if I knew about it ahead of time.

I’m fairly certain it was because I didn’t just try to bring something just on the edge of focus into focus, but tried to bring something too far away into focus…several times in the course of a day. I succeeded but it didn’t feel pleasant, and then right after: floaters.

So, if one followed your method to a T, this probably would not have happened. As I said, I discovered Endmyopia a number of years ago and did active focus on and off without any ill effect.

But considering a lot of people appear to develop floaters*, I do think a word of warning at the onset to not force things would prevent this side effect from happening to others.

*A small percentage according to you, but medications and the like do tend to note all side effects no matter how unlikely. Maybe if you even know the number you could include that. If it’s as low as you say, it probably wouldn’t dissuade anyone from trying, but they’d be aware of the risk.

A better comparison would be weight lifting I guess. Lifting the right weight is great. Lifting something much too heavy and you’re liable to throw your back out.

Probably many of them are just noticing them due to being more aware. But in my case, I am 100% certain I previously did not have what I now do. It’s a dark shape that flicks across my vision all day long. Something one really couldn’t have not been aware of.

Just to get the medical history out of the way. At the ER they weren’t sure what the cause was and so I was diagnosed as having an ocular migraine.

I later went to my ophthalmologist. Said I had an atrophic hole (though not in the eye with the dark floater) and referred me a retina specialist.

That retina specialist could not see the hole. Went to ANOTHER retina specialist, this one with better equipment. Said I have an atrophic hole (again in the eye without the dark floater) and some lattice degeneration in both eyes. I have a follow up in a couple weeks to see if my issues are stable and then my normal annual ophthalmologist checkup in October.

So yeah, I was a prime candidate to develop floaters, but considering a lot of people are as myopic as myself or worse who follow endmyopia, they are as well.

As far as the starbursts, ok, that one I must admit I’m reaching. There was no clear before/after like there was with the floaters. I hadn’t been outside much at night previously in recent months. I didn’t even notice it until after seeing all the above doctors, but I’ll bring that up next time and see what they say.

Anyway, I’m sorry for the meanness of my initial post. I needed to vent. I’m more angry at myself than you. I’m a visual artist by trade and mightily pissed that in an attempt to make my eyes better, I made them worse.

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I am curious to know what these ophthalmologists said about the floaters being due to excessive strain trying to see without correction. Did you ask directly?

I am sorry you are dealing with this. I hope it will settle down and improve for you.

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this sounds like you did active focus with a lot strain. it is just blinking. if you use the right correction for the right distance and for the right text size, then it will work. if the distance is too far or the text size too small, you will only strain your eyes by trying to clear something up, which they can not focus on. Eyes love bigger textsize, so they can easily focus on it. You blink, they reset the focus and clear the text.
I found that out, while trying to focus on smaller textsize so much, that the eyes were strained and vision got worse for that day or moment. Then I understood “eyes love bigger text”. But too big text will be not helpful, because there is too little blur.

btw: I don’t know if I am the only one, but in the beginning I was not sure how important full-spectrum light is for improvement etc. so I was placing it on the desk, shining right into the face. Later I discovered youtube videos about “blue light damages eye cells”, then I stopped doing that. (Ist LED-Licht schädlich für die Augen? | Gut zu wissen | BR - YouTube)
That should be also something to warn about. Hopefully nobody gets that idea of sitting in front of a full-spectrum light. It is absolutely not necessary and will probably only damage your eyes.

Maybe there are more common possible mistakes and dangers?
That would be really an important prevention list:
-endmyopia only for 18+
-do not enforce “active focus”, just blink.
-do not active focus, if you have headaches.
-do not active focus early in the morning.
-do not active focus for too long time, do breaks.
-do not reduce too fast.
-do not switch too frequently your glasses.
-do not place full-spectrum light in front of your face.
-do not experiment, better ask 100 questions
-what else?

At least I never looked directly into the light.
This dude here makes a big mistake: Tageslichtlampe 👍 - nach 3 Wochen - YouTube

So I got posterior vitreous detachment (PVD) at one point in 2019 after starting EM and reducing fast. Freaked out, got a dilated eye test, made a vlog, no retinal detachment. I also remember recently when reducing quickly again that I got some more eye flashes. Seems like dropping too many diopters at once caused symptoms of PVD for me.

I did get floaters as well at one point, but I never really went out of my way to notice them. EM’s gonna change your eyes in some ways as I saw it, I got it checked out and it was fine + went away. Really you’re just wearing weaker glasses than usual and your eyes are responding to it at a glacial pace. PVD stuff might be eye strain or something as a result of too little correction, not an MD, all pseudoscience. Anything that weaker glasses are going to do to your eyes is 100x better than Lasik will be. And yeah you get that shit all the time, sometimes permanently when you go down that path. I’d say increasing correction helped for me. Sorry to be the correlation is not causation guy, maybe my post worries some people but just my personal experience.

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How old are you, John? This topic is really important. If you think about the biology, of course enforcing active focus or fast reducing can cause serious problems. The blur challenge should be as small as possible and the reducing intervall time better longer than shorter. For example you think you can reduce, but in fact it is too early then you will have more challenge and this is risky. If endmyopia would ever go mainstream, then people will probably go crazy about getting rid of glasses as soon as possible and they will go crazy about finding active focus and clear up too much blur. These risks should remind them all the time, so they will be scared of trying to enforce it or do it fast. In fact the interviews tend to make a competition of the improvement/needed time ratio, which is not good. I do active focus almost daily but I think there is no healthy way of reducing after 2 months. 3 months is the minimum to consider. And 4 months are more realistic if you dont active focus every day.
Biology needs the slow and light change.
Of course this should be 1st priority.
Goal is healing, not fast improvement/fast figure out active focus.
So hopefully there is no connection of floaters with active focus, just the mentioned risks, which are very important.

So thank you, John! This topic made me thinking more carefully about the biology risks than the earlier “hopefully I can improve next time as soon as possible”. It is about improving as healthy as possible and not overstrain your eyes.

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This is exactly what I wanted to reply. Glad you kept adding to your original post.
If you are doing something like an exercise with force and get unwanted results then it is not really the result of EM, is it?
AF is not an exercise, doesn’t involve any forcing, there’s no “no pain no gain” here. It’s bringing awareness to your vision. That should not cause pain. Is your camera in pain when autofocusing? Your focusing should not be different.
Pain comes when someone gets the hang of it and thinks that “ok, I know how to do it, let’s push further to speed up gains”. But that is advised against a million times throughout EM.

Your example of weightlifting is spot on. Some people think a good workout comes with sweating and muscle aches. Simply not true.

If you have troubles with defining the edge of blur, define the edge of clarity and work there. Don’t live in blur with eyestrain believing that is EM. It’s not.

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