🎙 Laurens On The Podcast! (-3.75 To -1.00)

Of course you all know @Laurens, esteemed administrator and ruler of the land of forums of Meows.

Laurens most graciously agreed to do a podcast episode with us … like a year ago. And it only took ole Jakey dragging all the various feet for this long, to actually make it happen.

Yes all the complaining you hear all over the Internets about me, all well founded.

We did finally manage a chat though, and it was quite good. Here’s the video:

Or if you prefer to listen, here is the audio:

And you can find this and all other episodes in your favorite podcast app from our podcast page.

Or check out our Shortsighted Podcast playlist on the Tubes.

Working a bit on consolidating the work required to put these out. Consolidating the edits and intros and details to be more of a single piece for both Youtube and the audio podcasts. As with all endmyopia things as well, putting in some time to make things as uncomplicated as possible, so it’ll be easier to keep on track and upload regularly.

Hopefully lots and lots more episodes coming your way. I’ll also be converting some of the more popular Youtube video content into audio podcasts. More listening, less screen time. :wink:

Hope you enjoy our chat with Laurens!


Thanks both for this one! Jake, you answered a question I hadn’t gotten around to asking, right at 26:10. I’m not fully clear on the first case, but I think I get enough of the gist. Not something I’d quite picked out of the blog.

Also validating to hear Laurens’ experience going to -2.0, which I did recently. I was all confused, wondering why things seemed immediately clearer than with the -2.25, and thought perhaps lens index was playing a part. Together with some more plateau strategies and various ways the low range can turn out, this episode was super reassuring for where I am. Cheers!


Lens index definitely play a part in my experience. When I switched to 1.5 along with a 0.25 reduction @ 3.5 -> 3.25 dioptre, it felt like I did not reduced at all.


It was a great pleasure to listen to this podcast!
Laurens’ testimony confirms again that reducing myopia is not only possible but quite easy :slightly_smiling_face: And yeah, his brother’s story also shows that you don’t even need that much information to have success. A lot of people tend to overthink, instead of just applying the few principles mentioned in the 7 emails and doing some slight changes in their daily routine. But the problem might also be the expectation of instant result (which is a society problem) :thinking:

There is a lot of useful information in this podcast, especially (but not only) about how to deal with low myopia :smiley: I really liked when Jake says that your (minus) prescription should get back to what it really is: a crutch. Because it’s really what reaching low myopia means, you don’t need your glasses/contacts to “function” anymore. It seems easier to achieve this goal when you use glasses, though (come on Laurens, time to leave your contacts aside and grab out your glasses haha :grin: :upside_down_face:)

Anyway, congrats on your gains @Laurens :partying_face: Now it’s time for you to dive deeper into low myopia and enjoy more and more the world with your naked eyes!! :relaxed:
And the greetings at the end :wave: haha that was fun :smile:
The forum and community owe you (and Jake of course) a lot, so a big thank-you :clap: :clap:


Definitely so.

One of my biggest takeaways is that without everyone’s contributions, I would have given up long ago. I know that getting back to 20/20 is possible, so I won’t quit.


Exactly. Essentially endmyopia is:

Everything else is only necessary because people tend to overcomplicate things and people tend to loose beneficial habits (mostly because of convenience)


On over-complicating - I commenting on the youtube post, but I’ll say it here as well. One of my brothers is working through EM as well. He’s left it simple and just gradually reducing when it makes sense, whereas I’ve over complicated every aspect.

My experience will make me a better teacher of EM, but I did have to suffer through a lot of blur and other stuff for it. The simple approach is better


“I would have done it more simply, but I’m not built that way.”
– Kent M, Simpleton.



Thanks everyone for the great reception of this episode. Due to time constraints, Jake was getting hungry and these chats shouldn’t take 1 and a half hours or so to keep the audience engaged, some things that are useful to know didn’t get mentioned.

On my own journey, although I don’t keep an elaborate log, I rarely make rash decisions about these things. So let’s recap for a moment, I made this video shortly after joining Le Meow which depicts my first half a year of EM. Massive and quick progress. After that, during the summer holiday of 2018, I started using my -1.0 glasses for normalized and plano for differentials. This gave me a zero diopter reset multiple times a day. No contacts in sight anymore. The winter solstice hit, vision got much worse. I stuck with the -1.0 glasses (maybe I shouldn’t have). In March of 2019 I bought these (made to specs, a little expensive) glasses. At -0.75 they did give me good clarity from time to time (nice sunny weather for instance), but they’ve remained my peek prescription for now. I had to revert back to -1.0 shortly after getting them. It was just too much. So in June of 2019 I was a bit fed up with being stuck and I decided to revert back to what I was doing the first half year of EM. Contacts with + glasses for differentials. I’ve been doing that for 3/4 of a year now. The -1.0 contacts give me good clarity (do buy proper quality contacts ppl, please do…) and very slowly it’s becoming easier on my eyes.

There is a lot of trial and error going on here alongside me trying to be patient enough to see how and in what manner my eyes will adapt. Jake mentioned in the podcast that -1.5 glasses might be a bit on the high side for my zero diopter reset. I actually think it’s the proper set-up. Consider that glasses have their vertex distance and contacts don’t, if I convert my normalized contacts to glasses you’ll end up with -1.25 glasses. But since we’re going for easy clarity VS a big plano challenge, the -1.5 fit the bill more aptly.

I’ve been doing this for a week now, the recording was exactly one week ago. I can’t tell anything for certain just yet, but it might, it just might be that my eyes with no correction are now getting a very tiny bit faster in lining up the misalignment that makes up my un-corrected vision.

The moment that I’ve got something worthwhile to share again I’ll certainly do so. Just for the heck of it, my mother also joined in, even less engaged than my brother. She has gone from -6.5 back to -4.5/-4.25. I’m not sure if there’s some more progress of late that has been happening. She is a bit of a slacker with this and doesn’t really listen carefully to me explaining the necessary steps. But still, it’s progress and she’s moving in the right direction slowly but surely. With her age and presbyopia also being present it’s a bigger challenge all things considered. Perhaps in the future I can motivate her to make more of an effort.

Thanks for watching/listening to this episode, I appreciate it very much!


I applaud you for being able to go thru the effort of putting on contacts and then glasses on top of that.

@jakey so that’s how you did things. as the correction got lower you went lens free more and more until one day you just decided to go completely lens free bc there’s no longer a difference. So I wonder how often this happens with normalized and full distance reductions. -1.25 or -1.5: functionally no difference than uncorrected… ditch the glasses I’m seeing something of this sort for my computer use.


Yes I talked about this in a couple of podcast episodes recently. It’s not the only way to do it, but my favorite. :wink:


i wonder when do u wear your normalized nowadays ? and do you often go without glasses outdoors in a good sunny day ? I m just curious

In situations when someone is stuck for a long time at -1.0D or less, I usually tend to think the problem is more in a way of looking than axial length or ciliary muscles. You look plenty of time at one point, based on your profession. This is sort of some my wacky theory but I think there is close-up ciliary type of strain (1) and sort of close-up one point lens sort of strain – something opposite presbyopia (2).

You can look at something close-up in more panoramic view like computer graphics designer and develop ciliary strain (1), they look close-up but at whole picture sort of. When you look close-up at one point intensely, my assumption is that you can develop lens inflexibility - sort of opposite to presbyopia but on distance (2). This is completely different type of strain than type 1. Usually in type 1 relaxation is based on looking at the distance to relieve pressure from ciliary muscles - sort of edge of focus strategy. But if you have lens strain (2), it is much harder to relax with distance because you can still look at one point at the horizon and secondly it doesn’t change lens inflexibility. It that situation a person may need some peripheral exercises that sort of put pressure on outside points of a lens - sort of sth opposite to one point intense looking. You look intensely at the outside of your lens to make it more flexible, because it has lost ability to flatten properly. Similarly like people with presbyopia lost flexibility of lens at opposite end. They can’t accommodate fully. But it’s possible to train this by putting pressure on one point at old age. People with opposite problem would want to do opposite in my opinion. But again this is if something opposite to presbyopia exist in the first place.

You could check one thing. Check the video below. Cover one eye and set the video with 0.25 speed in options. Follow the center of the dot. It’s best to do this with some distance like 1.5 meters or at least 1-2. I don’t know if phones or ipads will be reliable because you need big screen to make big circles. The speed is very important. You need to change it to 0.25. It needs to be very slow. Follow the dot with one eye. Look for any differences between eyes. Is it the same? Or one feels different than the other. Can you hold sharpness with both eyes without problems? Remember try to follow center of the red dot. There is also different direction video on that channel, try it also. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCp28KYQzrE

This is one easy check to see if you have any other accommodation issues other than ciliary spasm. This will also show astigmatism but we don’t look for it here. You can do this with full correction even. We’re looking for difference in movement of the eyes and speed of accommodation not axial length or ciliary spasm.


One more thing. You need to hold head still. Move only eyes.

I think this is related to lazy eye, but lazy eye is sort of full-blown stage. At the beginning it’s like putting too much pressure on one leg. It would lead to some posture issues. Here it could be that the symptoms are lens accommodation issues, where you can’t flatten it from overusing one specific eye or putting too much pressure on center of the lens. Again this is only a theory but explains why some poeple have success with one method and other don’t. Because they have same symptom (blurry vision) but different cause ( ciliary / axial length / lens). And I think there are at least 3 causes, but maybe even more. Eyesight is like a car. Plenty things can go wrong and it starts stuttering. Including the driver. So check your oil. If it’s good check the next thing.

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Sometimes I have car trouble–can’t get the driver started.

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Here is one more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BOYb5zobJE&list=PLHWnOuRV2Y-l1zHSfJwoE7MFAlQD9cb01&index=1

Speed 0.25 again with one eye covered. Can you follow the dot without losing any focus or notice any difference between eyes? Does it feel any different in movement or keeping contrast or contrast speed? Again what’s important here is difference between eyes and not distance. It’s good to do this with correction to eliminate axial length or astigmatism because we’re looking for something else.

In situation where one eye is slacking with accommodation it’s very easy to find the culprit. It will be right there on the plate when you’re looking only through one eye, when comparing to the other one. But it can be sometimes difficult to spot when using both eyes. Because we can get accustomed to unbalanced level of accommodation for both eyes. Again lazy eye is something that is very late stage of problems with this. Most of the cases are very mild and usually people even don’t know that they have any issues. Mild lazy eye, in my opinion, isn’t even categorized as amblyopia or lazy eye but just myopia. Because you’ll develop constant mild blurry vision from it, just from strain or from not being able to flatten fully your lens because you only accommodate fully from one eye. And in the end, constant overusing stronger eye in that way will lead to issues there as well, giving symptoms of constant blurry vision in both eyes.

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Hi there @bachus,

Thanks for the ideas. I did check the videos (set to 1/4th of the speed) and I was able to follow it without any issues.

My work probably doesn’t cause my lens to become inflexible, because I’m looking up close, yes, but never at the same point for very long. My drill is moving around, on check-up I’m looking about so there is always some movement going on and some tensioning and flexing of the ciliary muscle and subsequently the lens. I look at my assistant handing me something, look at the patient, look at the computer screen so all in all, I’d say that isn’t the problem here. The problem here is lack of outdoor time. I need 3 hours and I get maybe 1,5. I also need to invest time to resolve my misaligned vision more. I had that build into my routine a year ago, but I’m no longer able to sustain that because of various reasons.

So right now I’m doing more plano and -1.5 glasses. I have to see what comes out of that before I jump to any conclusions. I’m hoping the 0-diopter reset will get me going again.

Thanks for taking your time and helping me debug here, it never hurts to have an extra set of :eyes: (pun intended too) looking into something.


So oil checked. If anyone has issue with that, give me a msg I have some questions.