Le Death (of endmyopia)?

:skull: Google is slowly chocking endmyopia into complete search-irrelevance. Actually went to look at the chart after a little chat with Laurens.

It’s really just … a tiny bit depressing.

This is what digital impendinng demise looks like, kittehz.

Question now is whether it’s honestly worth bothering putting in a ton of extra work with other ways to reach people. Like getting on more podcasts, connecting with other health and related content sources, doing whatever people do when they actually have a financial incentive to promote stuff.

I’ve talked to dozens of SEO people and agencies, all of whom will gladly take $5,000-$10,000 a month for some “maybe who knows let’s see” results. My gut feeling is that’d be a proper waste of resources.

Dp we really have a financial incentive to put in more time and resources? (not compared to Jakey trading on some juicy volatile markets, we sure don’t)

Do we have some kind of saintly, help-teh-world incentive? (hey, don’t look at me for that one, not without a lot of help anyway)

Is mainstream optometry going to win this one, shrug off endmyopia like another tiny pesky little fleeting bug?

Starting to look like a pretty solid MAYBE. :thinking:

(Thoughts and feedback and whatnot, always appreciated - marketing and Internet stuff really isn’t my arena and I just don’t quite have whatever the thing is that makes somebody truly care to pursue that type of challenge. It’d be a shame to sink to the bottom of the Internet ocean, at least that’s my obviously biased thought.)


Certain thoughts from experience of my dad’s “world free of diabetes and obesity campaign” (Look it up- lectures are also available in English). We started in 2013 with my dad adopting the diatery changes and reduced 8 kgs in 3 months. He is a doctor himself and then convinced other doctors and people to follow the diet. Seeing significant results, slowly it expanded. Today, we have almost 60k people connected through whatsapp groups with more than 5k diabetics. One part of the team is working to get Lancet research published to show relation of meal frequency changes to changes in insulin resistance. The mainstream understanding is that diabetes is a non reversible disease based on genetics and whatnot. We have proven that it is habits that create diabetes and weight issues and preventing it or reducing it doesn’t require expensive things (pills, doctors, gym etc).

There are a lot of similarities between these campaigns such as- mainstream doctor-research-pharma industry tells something otherwise, various other methods propagated by quacks, small community of people who have seen results etc

Certain things we can learn from it-

  1. The necessity of volunteers to run a campaign is paramount- we have a team of 200+ active volunteers who are taught how to deal with individual issues in a whatsapp group which has like (100-150) members. They never give medical advise but assist in following the plan. All of these volunteers have seen miraculous changes like (diabetes reversal, weightloss changes like 10kg+)
  2. Possibility of direct connection with people- providing an option where endmyopia volunteers (who came back to 20/20 vision) are trained to lead groups of people and giving them specific advise can be looked into. We can have different groups for different issues (high myopia, low myopia etc)
  3. The lead figure effect- I see my dad working tirelessly talking to people each day regarding this (He takes more than 40 calls a day, sometimes even more!). That energy is transferred to others, fires up the excitement and hope for people to join and actually make the changes they need to make in life. His ability to give good speeches also helps him in that. Similarly here I see that Endmyopia is around you @jakey. But honestly when I came across you, I felt that you were doing everything you can to not tell me exactly what I needed to do. It irritated me tbh. The knowledge was a little scattered although things like 7 days emails are good. But it is based on an assumption that all of us will not be able to handle information all at once. I don’t understand point of this assumption tbh. It might actually repel people from connecting to Endmyopia (out of the 5 people I have suggested this to started with these emails and I am the only one still connected). Later on I understood why you are acting in such a way, as it can be really tricky telling people regarding this etc. But imo this has a deterrent effect on people to share your videos or even watch them completely. I like the edgy humor :wink: but it doesn’t sit well in a public campaign. It seems you are kind of a reluctant leader who wants and all doesn’t want to do this.
  4. The question of paid programs- now culturally we Indians are sceptical of anyone who wants to help people but takes money for it. This is why my dad promoted this as a free and do it yourself campaign but with assistance from volunteers who are not paid. Recently we have started a trust to take donations to run “anti diabetic centres” in various Indian cities as well as travel expenses etc. But the overall thing remains free for those who want to do it and is effectively marketed as such. I tried to convince my dad to make money out of this ($$$ in diabetic industry is awesome) but he is inspired by the hard work he has to put rather than money and it seats well with the Indian crowd. Although I am not sure how this will run in the western crowd exactly. This needs to be sorted out
  5. Finally internet is not life. Our diabetes campaign doesn’t even have a website or app (although we are working on it now) and still we have 60k people connected. I think this points to good old mouth to mouth publicity which is anchors the campaign into something unstoppable. Data and research is important but people experiencing actual changes and excitedly telling others about it is something different.

Things which are endmyopia positives

  1. It has a strong community with potential volunteers
  2. A lead figure already exists around whom the campaign can reach heights with certain tweaks
  3. Actual results are being seen
  4. It gives people hope to do live healthy.
  5. It also gives people the thrill of sticking it up to biased so called experts who have ruined their lives.
  6. The feeling or even possible feeling that someday in future I won’t be dependent on this glasses is unfathomable for me. It excites me to my core. Liberty is truly addictive.

I think all of this can be channeled into something pretty amazing with future possibilities like world free of myopia and all the people and children out there getting their eyesight back! I think one of Gandhijis quote is relevant here- “first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”


Maybe better that the site is only going to show up for the really dedicated individual. Quality over quantity.


Wonderful to hear about your Dad’s work! :grinning: I reversed diabetes and obesity from information on the internet, and not from any doctor. Diabetes is a big issue in India, and the gratitude of those he has helped outweighs any lakhs of rupees he could earn by turning his passion into a business. I would like you to pass on a big thank you to your Dad.:pray: I will enjoy looking at his work online.

I agree with some of your suggestions about a bit more organisation for Endmyopia. I had some initial reservations as well regarding Jake’s sense of humour, and getting hold of all the information (lots of it by random searching). I also see the problems with a lot of people wanting a quick fix, and not being willing to do the work of assembling the information and fully understanding it themselves.
Another consideration with your otherwise very valid comparison is that reversing diabetes and obesity can give fast results, with some people getting rid of diabetes medications in the space of a few months (or even days, according to Jason Fung, and others). Ending myopia is a much longer and slower process, requiring patience and determination, and in our quick-fix world that is more than a great many people can manage. The anti-diabetes/obesity field now has a fair amount of research to back it, and Endmyopia depends only on the testimonies of those who have used it successfully.

@jakey You may really, really, really not like the idea that much, but it seems that fate has chosen you for this task. Surely you would not want your value to society to be determined by Google! I will throw another quote at you, Margaret Mead. ‘Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world ; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.’

@FMR I don’t agree with you on this one. Make the information more accessible, and determination and patience will then do the work of sorting the sheep from the goats (or the tares from the wheat, for those who still insist cereals are good for your health :smile:).


We should open an optics shop and cell lenses to people with perfectly natural eyesight


As mentioned in the quantifying efforts topic, more time is needed for the success stories to play out. At one diopter reduction per year, the success stories are in progress. The good news is that EM is international and the grassroots are planted. Growth is marginal now while everyone is working it…just need to wait for the youthful iPhone and Android users to get mad enough. The advent of these devices is not that old…most don’t realize what they’ve done and are doing to their eyes YET, and that’s a key word. It will blow up eventually. There shouldn’t be any rush if there are no advantages to rushing EMs success.


I checked out the ADORE website. I see your Dad also wears glasses, and when you have made significant reductions in your myopia, he could be your first Endmyopia convert (i.e. if he has myopia) :grinning:


Based on our other topic: How did YOU find endmyopia? There are a lot of people coming from podcasts. So while I don’t know how much costs and time they need I think those are definitely the way to do. Also because I don’t think google search can be “fixed” by us (it will be maybe by govs, but that will take years). So maybe the way would be to put more emphasis on podcasts and less on other ways? Also how do youtube videos do?

Ultimately I think you have to decide what you want: you want to make Endmyopia mainstream (hey, we again arrived to this point :smiley:) which means increasing the user / follower counts and put a lot of energy into this, or you are simply happy with being a peaceful island in the ocean of mainstream optometry? Because if the latter then I would not fret much on the search results, because you are not for the majority, but for the minority who found you somehow. Of course it also means it does not really worth to put much money into, only that amount which you would spend for a hobby (and the same is true for the time / energy investment).

Edit: also do you have any kind of numbers from podcast reaches?


Firstly, I think the humour is fine : like I said in another post, if the founder is relatable and seems like a normal guy, people are more likely to not be scared off.

About google search: well, Google has like probably over 100 parameters they use to weightand order sites for specific key words, one of them being how many people link to your site - so I can tell from my own google searches, not many sites link to yours and that is the first problem, if we can call it that.

But I also agree that it is probably not worth trying too hard or putting too much effort in to marketing campaigns. First, it’s a financial risk. Second, as you say in some blog posts, maybe you don’t want attention from a 100 billion dollar industry that could find some reason and way to sue the site out of existence. Third, dedicated enough people will find it anyway, and word of mouth dissemination works (though not as well as a google search result, but as said above, it’s hard to influence that).

As Hannie said, today’s generation is into quick fixes, which this is not. But I think as people get older they get more patient and the site will probably appeal to an on average more mature crowd.

And as Mare and I’ve also said: I think success stories are in the pipeline- in a few years you might have a lot more and a way to credibly present those is the best for the site, I think. Youtube videos are also good, eventually one of them could go viral if there are enough success stories.

So to sum it up, my gut feeling is to NOT put too much effort and money into marketing because it’s risky in several ways and may not be worth the effort, unless you enjoy that kind of thing. Keep doing the thing on various platforms. Maybe even your youtube sucess means some people are not transitioning to the site, who knows.

Oh and one last thing: I agree with RutwikDixit that the information is very spread out over blogs, forum and youtube. But that’s what happens when something grows over time. In german they say historisch gewachsen :smiley: whenever they want to explain something that is no longer logical or organised but made sense at the time :smiley:


I think that for EM to grow beyond Jake, we need the people who have gotten back to 20/20 to be involved with teaching and helping people through it.

Imagine if, 5 years from now, anywhere you are in the world, there’s an EM “graduate” or “practitioner” within driving distance.

Once I hit my 20/20, I’ll cheerfully put myself out there.


And so would I, although I would probably be 80 by then.


Yeah, it’s tough. I know when I first found EM 5 years ago, one of my first questions was - “has anyone actually gotten back to 20/20?” While a little thought and homework shows that the question isn’t the right question, it’s always going to be one the new people ask.

That’s why I think we need people who have finished to be vocal about it. Problem is, there’s a lot of people who get to low myopia and don’t break through the last diopter. I won’t quit, and I will cheerfully post my “Optometrist confirmed” when I have one, but I’m not 20/20 yet.

On your part, you just have to be patient and enjoy the improvements as they come.


But @jakey should have more people from the paid program. Or I’m mistaken?

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Yes, evolved over time, although it would not be fair to say the material is no longer logical, it is simply not very well organised. I don’t blame Jake for not wanting to spend half of his time trying to get it all in order. He has an adventurous life to lead. In terms of the big five personality traits, he is obviously the creative and adventurous type, who gets things going, but needs more plodding conscientious support to keep things going. It sounds as if he has this on his paid programme. He now needs it for the blog, but who has the time and screen tolerance to do all the organising and streamlining for him without payment. If I were not such a digital dinosaur, with very limited computer skills, I would be happy to do some of it. A start was made by Laurens and co. in the forum, but this seems to be stagnating.


I would think so, and there are some reports on the website here: https://endmyopia.org/category/segmenting-diopters/20-20/, though not all are “perfect clear vision all the time.”

It seems what happens is that as people’s vision improves, they use their screens less because they’re more involved in living life than being on screens.


What has been started here is a bit different. That’s like writing a guide / tutorial based on our own experience. But a different way would be just selecting the best / most relevant of Jake’s blog and videos into categories.


We again arrive to the “hard to find information on the site” problem :slight_smile: In this case it’s hard to find clear cases, where it’s perfectly clear:

  1. It’s an adult (starting at 25+)
  2. Starting dioptre is higher than -2.50 (below that it could be ciliary spasm all the way with some margin of error)
  3. Reached 20/20, or close to it (I would accept 20/40 or about -0.75 dioptre). Preferably confirmed by optometrist, but even clear self report would be good.

I’ve skimmed through about 30-40 posts and checked about 5-10, but could not find such a case (it’s totally possible that there is, and I just could not find it).


yes this is the problem.

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well, despite of this problem - we’re all here, so I don’t think it’s the real problem :wink:

I just entered what I thought I entered when I found EM - and no no nope, no endmyopia showing up on google on the first 2 pages anymore…
… not even on page 10, I just cheked!
So, had I tyoed my little search today - I’d probably not have found endmyopia!!

This seriously sucks!
I also checked startpage and duckduckgo - no endmyopia on the first pages neither!

So much for searching the internets…


My search was something like “glasses causing headache” - EM is still on the first page in google for this :slight_smile: