Need help trouble shooting - dont let me down EM

Hey everyone. Ive been watching and reading some of y’alls improvements on the forums or YT and its getting me motivated to keep persevering on EM and I really do want this to work, but I need some help.

I stared off with L. eye -4.75 (.50 cyl) and R, -4.50 (.70 cyl) glasses, which I got 4-5 years ago and that I am still wearing since attempting em 2 years ago. I thought I was blur adapted, because I checked my eyesight and im suppose to wear -5 and -4.75 lens, but I was able to see the 20/25 or 20/20 with my current glasses in good lighting. During my journey, I increased my glasses up by .25, but there was no stimulus for me to do af and I didnt make progress. A little while later I tried .25 D less in the glasses I started off with, but the challenge was too high and I was straining to correct the blur.
Ive narrowed it down to not getting enough stimulus and my glasses strength, but Im not sure if I should go up or down by .25 again, as Ive become too comfortable with my starting glasses, they are the perfect normalised, but I think im blur adapted to them. Not to mention, they got scratched up patches on them recently. that I cant make progress with them. What would make the most sense?

And does anyone know where I can get an accurate 6 meter snellen chart? Theres 3m online, but I liked the 6m. I kinda lost the the EM’s snellen when I stopped em for a while, which isnt available anymore to the public. I dont really want to buy the rough guide, because I think I have a good understanding of the basic concepts.

I bought this one https://www.amazon.co.uk/Traditional-Snellen-Optometric-Chart-56-6-1/dp/B00ISRR5D2/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=6m+snellen+chart&qid=1623003423&sr=8-6

So you’re saying your starting glasses are too low, and you’re blur adapted to them. Honestly I’d go get a proper eye test by an actual optometerist and see if their eye test is drastically different to what you’re currently wearing. Or, buy like three pairs of glasses in 0.25 increments above the ones you currently wear until you find your actual 20/20 point, and then reduce 0.25 from there. I’ve also struggled with blur adaptation from a wrong starting point. I think I read what you’ve written here correctly anyway :thonking:

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https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Snellen_chart.svg

The big E should be 8.73 cm (3.44 in) long.

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That’s no good. If you can afford to (not sure which country you’re in or your situation) I would certainly get new glasses made up. Remember to always keep them in a hard case wrapped in a microfiber cloth if you’re not wearing them, wash them with lukewarm water, don’t clean them with a T-shirt or clothes, etc. Never set them face-down, dont drop them…

Are you using differentials? The biggest eye-killer is using distance glasses for close-up work.

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Doesn’t really sound blur adapted to me…

I’m not sure you are describing blur adaptation here, habituated to them, probably, but that is different.
I would suggest you measure yourself again at 20 feet this time and then you can decide from there which way to go. It does sound like your stimulus needs a shake up. Some options to consider (in no particular order:
Use .25 stronger in low light to reset clarity expectation.
Use .25 stronger for about 2 weeks then return to the current correction, again to reset clarity expectation.
Use .25 weaker during optimal light only (outdoors on a sunny day)

Naturally continue using diffs, but some fresh stimulus should be just the thing for you.

Agreed no matter which suggestion you take you still need to replace that correction.

Tip about the Snellen, until you get a 20’ chart put your 10 foot chart 20 feet away and adjust when you record. Ex. 20/20 line > 20/10, 20/30 > 20/15. 20/40 > 20/20, 20/50 > 20/25

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I did get an eye exam 1.5 years ago. the Rx was -5 and -4.75, just like I measured, but I had a little more .25 to .50 astigmatism in the optometrist eye exam. I went to an opto who corrects you to just what you need it, but told me that the difference is really little
what I mean by perfect normalised is that, if I were to wear the optometrist’s measurements, then my current glasses would be the right one for EM. Most people start off by being either over prescribed or a bit more underprescribed.
when I go outside with my current glasses, Its a struggle for me to clear up any blur, but sometimes I can see well into the distance if its really sunny. So im having trouble with where my blur horizon starts.

By blur adapted I mean the Em’s blur adapted term, that there is slight blur in the distance but I can never clear it up. My eyes have gotten too used to the blur that it does not want to do anything. If its a particularly good day with lots of sun, sometimes the blur will clear when I blink and my eyes get teary (probably just ciliary from the night before).
I think I will try to wear .25 higher for a little while to reset that clarity. I thought I had to wait weeks to return to the current courrection

Yea :sweat_smile: its because I kept switching from diffs to norms and occasionally driving glasses that ive neglected my daily wear glasses.

Is that a 6 meter chart? the Em one had the three lines on one letter page and the other lines on a separate page.

I dont quite understand that. How do you adjust?

Perhaps go with what feels more comfortable, maybe take it slow. It shouldn’t be a struggle to do anything in my experience.

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http://www.i-see.org/block_letter_eye_chart.pdf
I found this snellen, but im not sure if its accurate.

If you double your distance you can just adjust your thinking. So if you read what is labeled 20/50 on the 10 foot chart from 20 feet away it is the same as 20/25 if you had been using a 20 foot chart.

4-6 weeks is standard, though there are times exceptions can be made. Even still after such a long period of being stagnant 4-6 weeks would hardly make a difference, better than riding out another 6 months only to still need to go up for that clarity reference anyways. Sometimes people (I have been guilty here too) waste a lot of time thinking it is a set back to go back up. But your eyes are where your eyes are, the strength of the lenses in front of them is kind of arbitrary. Don’t make flippant changes obviously but don’t be afraid to back pedal as needed.

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Okay thank you.

Im not the best with calculations and logical stuff like this, but is this snellen accurate? (Ah i should have kept the EM’s snellen in a good place)
http://www.i-see.org/block_letter_eye_chart.pdf

Should be. Just make it the right size on your screen or print-out.

:blush: Have you tried 20/50 rule for Normalized (distance vision)? Jake has a video on it. I think he gives the example that if a myope of -5 wears -4 D glasses (as norms), it gives around 20/50 clarity.

For Differentials (close up), I think generally -1.5 to -2 D lower than distance glasses is recommended. But, I had a doubt on this one. Should the differentials be -1.5 D lower than full correction? Or Should the differentials be -1.5 D lower than Normalized?

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The first one. though the more complex (and best) way, is to measure your distance and then determine your diff correction from there: Guide:Reducing differentials - EndMyopia Wiki

I hate that this is getting a full on revival! I really think 20/50 is bad advice. That much blur puts most people off for one thing, then there is the legality issue that you need at least 20/40 to drive it, not to mention the strain involved. I agree with Jake on many many things but this 20/50 thing is doing things the hard way for no good reason. Not to mention the user already stated strain concerns at most likely around 20/30.

@jakey also said in another thread that he himself not really apply this rule anymore, because realized that many people has problem with it. And if he would redo the video, it would be otherwise.

Edit: he says it here:

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Thank you @halmadavid I remembered that but couldn’t remember where he said it.

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This has unfortunately been very much making a comeback in facebook group as well. Maybe Jake will make a daily beard at some point that updates to the current stance…

Or @jakey: another short animated video idea :rofl:

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Yea, I too thought that it must be -1.5 to -2 D lower than full correction. But, I was not sure. Also, I think I saw a reference in EM wiki that the difference between Norms & Diffs must be around -1 D to -2 D. So, I got confused…
Thanks for clarifying… :blush:

I think Jakey got it correct on this one. 20/50 seems a good blur to aim with Normalized. I think Jakey’s logic is pretty solid on this one. 20/50 indoors in artificial lighting gives good blur challenge (small spaces means less distance acuity needed). In natural light in outdoors, acuity improves appropriately. 20/50 becomes 20/40 or 20/30 easily. So, 20/50 gives a fair blur challenge indoors & outdoors while keeping us fairly functional.

I am not convinced that less than 20/50 blur (for Norms) would be enough to consistently provide blur challenge. 20/30 indoors would translate to 20/20 outdoors. So, no blur challenge outdoors. Also, I think 20/50 acts as a cut off mark for visual cortex activity. I think that below 20/50 blur (for Norms), visual cortex gets engaged more than the physical eyes. At 20/50 (for Norms), blur is big enough that visual cortex cant clear it by itself. Then the eyes get engaged due to stimulus (which also causes eye strain).

I completely agree with you that 20/50 does cause strain. So, I think there must be more active ways to manage eye strain. Jake does recommend
a) 20/20/20 rule
b) periodic screen breaks
c) less screen time
d) bigger screens instead of smaller screens.
These methods are very useful, but I agree with your sentiment that these methods may not be enough to manage the resulting eye strain from 20/50 (or reduced lens). Because these are passive strain relief methods. I know Jake makes fun of Palming, but there has to be a more active strain relief method in EndMyopia. Maybe hot compress… or some other way should be recommended for people to deal with eye strain. Personally, Yogic Eye wash (with water at room temp) has been very effective in dealing with eye strain for me. I have also tried Hot compress, and hot compress also gives some relief.

not necessarily… mine is .75 currently and will be .5 after my next reduction. So I actually get about 20/50 with my diffs which I can use to get extra challenge when I can be attentive. But the rest of the time I switch to my normz that are more 20/25 with some 20/20 in good light at the moment. Now the fine print here is that I use my computer at apx 105cm give or take.

There is certainly a preference factor, and everyone makes their own choices how much blur to go with, but I 100% think 20/50 is advice that should come with many qualifiers…

On a chart at the same distance, yes. In truth over real distance, no. I won’t repeat all of that here because I already covered it here: More on measuring - YouTube but the short version is that the natural light advantage translates very well until after 40 feet or so, after which that translated extra clarity starts to decrease.

Thank you for restating some of the EM principles for other readers…
I use a hot compress and accupressure massage and points myself. However I do state again that for the majority of people 20/50 is undue and counter productive strain, not to mention a safety concern… Many here have realized first hand, minimal blur is the better approach. Less issues with becoming habituated as well as less strain, still productive too. I believe it is far better to look for blur than to marinate in it.

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